323 | Guiding Sons into Manhood, Defining Masculinity, And Four Principles of a REAL Man (Michael Warren: Part 1)
Episode Description
Michael Warren is passionate about equipping fathers and mentors to guide young boys into manhood. His goal is to facilitate adventure moments that give sons an answer to the question, “When did I become a man?” In part one of this conversation, Michael describes how dads can define and model the timeless principles of manhood to their kids.
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Michael Warren is a dad of four who is passionate about equipping fathers to lead their sons into REAL masculinity. He lives in Anchorage, Alaska, where he facilitates the Alaska Knights program at ChangePoint.
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· Fathers must communicate a clear definition of manhood.
· Middle school is a strategic time to start calling boys up and out of the home—away from distractions like video games—and into learning led by dad.
· A REAL man Rejects passivity, Expects God’s greater rewards, Accepts responsibility, and Leads courageously.
· REAL men have a work to do, a will to obey, a woman to love, and a world to serve.
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Podcast Intro: [00:00:01] Being a great father takes a massive amount of courage. Instead of being an amazing leader and a decent dad, I want to be an amazing dad and a decent leader. The oldest dad in the world gave you this assignment, which means you must be ready for it. As a dad, I get on my knees and I fight for my kids. Let us be those dads who stop the generational pass down of trauma. I want encounters with God where He teaches me what to do with my kids. I know I'm going to be an awesome dad because I'm gonna give it my all.
Michael Warren: [00:00:39] There is a moment when these young boys, they wake up in the morning, they have a letter or a video from their father that says, hey, I'm calling you up and out. You have a choice. You can go back to bed, mommy can make you breakfast, and you can spend the day at home doing what you usually do. Or you can come and follow me into manhood. Most of the boys that have ever had that challenge have said, yeah, I'm going. And then they have a series of moments to kind of confirm and affirm that that's what they want to do. So they're kind of called up and called out. They're given a point of decision.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:01:12] What's up guys. Welcome back to DadAwesome. My name is Jeff Zaugg. And today Michael Warren, this is going to be the first of a two part series. So episode 323 is the first half about a half hour of the conversation with Michael. And then next week, episode 324, will be the second half. It's about an hour conversation, and it was just too good to cut, so I wasn't able to cut 10 or 15 minutes off to bring it down to a one part episode. So I was like, let's just keep it all. Michael Warren is in Alaska, and he has been leading for almost 15 years and leading an amazing father son program, just helping disciple and equip dads and influencers that are playing dad like figures to these amazing young men, welcoming them into manhood. And this is, this is just a, a bright spot when you find and discover. So our mutual friend Justin, introduced us. And, when you find a bright spot in the area of intentional fatherhood, like, like this case, I couldn't help but say yes. Let's dive in. Even though most of the conversation is focused, father, son, it's so applicable to me with four little daughters. It's applicable to you no matter if you have sons or daughters. And it's so practical. The process of equipping dads in the process of us getting clarity on what is our vision for fatherhood? What's our vision for masculinity in these raising young men? So this is going to be so helpful for you guys. Want a quick let you know that we're just 3 or 4 days away from the end of March. So if you're listening right here when this releases, you still have time. But if you listen later, don't worry about this announcement. So we've been inviting the last 4 or 5 weeks, I've been mentioning it encouraging and sharing a little bit more information about the Spring DadAwesome Accelerator Group. This group, there's only ten spots available. Applications are, the application is open until the end of March. But it's a six week group that's going to journey together and grow and really take ground in the area of being intentional Dad. So it's a brand new pilot program. I encourage you guys, if you're interested, make sure you email quick awesome@dadawesome.org and you'll get all the details. Also, we're dropping this week or last week, a quick video kind of captures the entire experience. That will be out on our YouTube channel and, our social media, so you'll know more about it. But in case you missed it, act quick, email awesome@dadawesome.org to get all the flyover of the, the experience, the information, and the link to apply to be a part of the Spring DadAwesome Accelerator. Okay, let's jump in. This is part one, my conversation with Michael Warren.
Michael Warren: [00:03:56] We have four kids. Our oldest is 18 and then coming down from there 18, 15, 13 and 11. Boy, boy, girl, boy. So three boys, one girl. And she reminds us daily that she's the only one. So, surrounded by boys.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:04:12] Yes. Amazing. And what would it, let's go with your daughter's perspective, what would she say about dad? If I was like, hey, tell me a little bit about your dad. What's what's he like? What would she say?
Michael Warren: [00:04:22] I think she sees the intentional side of things. So we we go on dates often. We're actually getting ready right now for a daddy daughter kind of, dance, prom kind of style experience coming up. And it's what we talk about daily. And so my impression is that when she thinks of me, she thinks of probably how I bring a little bit of toughness on her school and the things that she knows she's working on and I'm working on her with, but also probably, a pretty long list of special memories. In her room, she has a bookcase and, a lot of the pictures on there are of me and her at these milestone moments. And I like that because I think that that that's going to set her up down the road as she looks out to the landscape of guys out there and, and has to make some choices. So anyway a lot in that, as well.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:05:12] Yeah. So I want, I want to come back to milestone moments and just how we can actually craft and create moments that are significant and memorable and they anchor our kids back. But let's go with quickly your boys though, what would they add to your daughter's perspective of you? Would they add anything or throw anything a little different in when they describe dad?
Michael Warren: [00:05:28] This is a tricky question. I haven't, I haven't thought too much about like what do they think of when they think of me? I think I think I'm pretty present and around. I think, I think when they think of me, I think they, they would probably think of, me sitting on the end of their bed, me at the dining room table kind of me present in the stands. And so, I think that, I think that they would probably say, present.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:05:50] Yeah. Now, we were, that's still it's helpful. It's just kind of colors the conversation a little bit. We were introduced by our mutual friend, Justin, who said, and you have to talk to Michael. There's something really special going on in Alaska that he's a part of the leadership for. That's been going on for, I think, close to three decades, these adventure moments, raising discipling dads, sons. And so we're going to go into that in a little bit here. But when it comes to your desire as a dad to not only care for your own kids, but just go beyond and be a part of something bigger than your own family when it comes to discipleship and men, is this something you observed from mentor or like did you not have it, so that's why you're like, you swung the pendulum or where did that does that like deeper desire to be an intentional dad or does it come from?
Michael Warren: [00:06:40] I think it comes from a couple of places. My dad and I are the closest of friends, and I love him. And I love that I can say that because we have a, we have a story, my dad and I, have some things that we've kind of been through and landing in this green pasture. That wasn't always the green pasture. And, but I think he was a dad who, who worked very, very hard and provided so many things for us as a family that made a lot of memories for us. But because he was working so hard on those things and setting up, kind of a situation where we were provided for, he he wasn't around much. And so when I think of the deep conversations that I had or the moments of crisis where I really needed some coaching and some help, he's not the guy that comes to mind. It's my mom. And my mom was was, was a great help to me. But it left some questions around, some important, some important concepts around, kind of growing in faith and, and interacted with women. And, there were some trouble spots. So I would say when I think of my relationship with my dad, he didn't know a lot of what was going on, and he was busy working on. I think from his perspective, what it meant to be a man. From maybe it's a generational perspective or whatever it is. And so the first time that I experienced kind of coaching, discipleship, kind of older, Godly person reaching down and helping me was when I came to Christ. And that experience of being coached and guided and helped was so amazing that when I started having kids, I started asking the question, what does it mean to be a dad? What does it mean? Like, what's my responsibility as a dad to coach and to help my kids with their faith? Because we go to church for an hour a week, hour and a half, I drop them off at this program. They have a lot of fun. They're learning a little bit of Bible, but is that a is that it? Is that enough to get them to where they need to be to engage as pre-teens, as teenagers and the culture that they're in? So yeah, I'd say I had a dad who was loving, maybe not a disciple maker, maybe not as intentional as he could have been or whatever. And again, I bless my dad. He's a great friend. And then having kids and just having question marks, question marks, question marks about everything. Like what does this look like?
Jeff Zaugg: [00:09:05] So if I come to you with some of those question marks and, and lets just say I make a little, and by a little trip, Florida to Anchorage, Alaska area is a long trip. If I fly up with a few buddies and just like, hey, tell us, like, get us going in the right direction. So some young dads come to you. What are some of the top of mind? Like you're like, nope, what you want to for sure start with some of these anchoring like do this, as a young dad, what are some of the things you'd share?
Michael Warren: [00:09:30] Yeah, I love that. So, any time that I work with dads or I work on my own kind of parenting, it's especially for the boys, it's it's a clear definition. Translating and communicating and modeling a clear definition of what it means to be a man. So it has to do with like, like a clarity and then it has to do with getting it in there. And, I am just really passionate about this particular program that I've involved in, it's called the Alaska Knights, because it creates a context to teach dads, to teach dads about what the Bible says about authentic biblical manhood. And it gives them a context to press that in in a way that's truly unforgettable. Because we, because of where we do it and kind of how we do it.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:10:22] And so this is what I'm so curious about, is that a culture, a community of like, you've got a huge leadership team that's for years, 25 plus years has said this, we're going to prioritize this. Creating this framework, bringing dads and mentor type dads and these boys to experience what they're not going to drift towards. It's been crafted to help them grow. Share a little more about what the experience is.
Michael Warren: [00:10:50] Yeah. So, so we believe that middle school is a strategic time, a strategic time to start calling boys up and out of the home, up and away from a video game console, up and away from from anything that kind of has their hearts and their minds and up into some learning. And we believe that that that learning is led by dad. And so, this program, the Alaska Knights, is designed to equip dads with a language and opportunities to kind of call up and and to invite their boys into the community of men. And, this experience is Backcountry Discipleship School that I'm going to be sharing about a little bit here, is is where that happens. And there is a, there are some formal markers, some kind of Y in the road moments. So that in the future, when that boy thinks, if anybody ever asks that young man, when did you become a man? They have an answer to that. Now culture has set up a lot of, you know, pseudo moments or milestones, you know, is it when you beat this game? Is it when you go on your first date? Is it when you engage with a woman in a certain way? Like, there's all kinds of things that culture can offer up that that a young man may grab, too, is like, well, I think it was when this happened, or I think it was when this happened. We as as men of God, we want to intercept all of that. And we want to say, no, no, no, this is what it means. And this is when it happens. And and this is a vision not only for you as a 12 year old or a 14 year old or an 18 year old. But this is a vision that you can apply from now on, whatever context you're in.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:12:35] Is it a series they, they're actually going to come multiple times a series of trips then to to this Backcountry Discipleship School?
Michael Warren: [00:12:43] Yeah. So we, we start out by inviting the boys to join us for this weekend experience. And, we keep it a secret. Now, anytime you say, oh, it's a secret, and the secret is wrapped around a religious thing, no like we're not talking about, like, a fraternity or a secret society or anything goofy like that. But we really want this to be a surprise, because we really want those young men to count the cost. And to think, I'm at this Y in the road, and for it to kind of have the most magnitude, the most amplitude, the most impact. And so we try to keep it quiet and discreet. But there is a moment when these young boys, they wake up in the morning, they have a letter or a video from their father that says, hey, I'm calling you up and out. You have a choice. You can go back to bed. You can, mom, mommy can make you breakfast, and you can spend the day at home doing what you usually do. Or you can come and follow me into manhood. And so, you know, I mean, most of the boys that have ever had that challenge have said, yeah, I'm going. And then they have a series of moments to kind of confirm and affirm that that's what they want to do over the rest of the morning. And so they're kind of called up and called out. They're given a point of decision. And then for these young men, we spend the next couple of days really rolling out a vision for manhood. Like what does, what does the Bible say about what, what is a man? And we use we contrast Adam one and Adam two. Adam one being Adam in the Garden of Eden. Who, when we defined biblical manhood, he failed, and and we need to learn from his failure. But in the New Testament and the Gospels, we have this Adam two, which is Jesus who did it perfectly. So in the contrast, let's have a discussion about what this means. So important at this point. This is not something we made up. This is all been adopted from a book that was written by, it's written by a guy named Robert Lewis. Robert Lewis is from Fellowship Bible Church in Little Rock, Arkansas. He wrote a book called Raising A Modern Day Knight, and his idea was that dads need to be involved. Boys need a masculine vision. If you do it around an intentional language and if you do it around ceremony, these things are sticky. So he's the one that kind of set up the kind of the big idea that like, hey, here's a language that we can transfer. Here's the biblical study. What we've done in Alaska is we've brought the entire, all of the learning, all the content, all the ideas, we brought it into the back country of Alaska.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:15:40] Yes. Well, we had Robert Lewis on three years ago, and, so grateful for that resource. We continue to recommend Raising A Modern Day Knight. But the, what's uncommon is taking some learnings, some principles that are, you know, straight from straight from the Bible, like you're talking about, Adam one, Adam two, but actually like activating, let's create something for dads and for, sons. That's what's uncommon. I've been, I've spent two and a half years in an RV traveling the country, looking for pockets and moments and bright spots of intentional fatherhood work. And there's just not, I'm not finding those kind of examples often. So that's why I celebrate what I celebrate. But two, like you, you felt like I want to not only be a part as a young dad, your son was young when you started this, I think he was like three years old, I think you told me. You said I want to help others. I want to help, help this vision go and help others a decade before you needed it, as far as your son. Why do you think that's uncommon? Why, why are these, these places, these retreats, these moments, these challenges, invitations for dads, why are they not found more often?
Michael Warren: [00:16:48] I'm not sure, you know. But here's what I do know, the the things that are out there that seem to be effective or can be effective vehicles to translate some of these things, they're just kind of going away. Or they're changing or something. And so, you know, the principles are what, what matters. It's dads catching a vision for translating. Like whether or not it's this Back Country Discipleship School or whether it's any other program. But I feel like some of the formal programs where you could actually do these kinds of things inside of, they just, at least in Alaska, a lot of them seem to be, seem to be going away. And so, what I feel like is this is kind of a, this is kind of like a holdout, at least for now, where we're like, no, no, no, we are going to fight for this. And I think the longevity that we've enjoyed has been tied to the fact that, that, that it's really transforming men's hearts and their families and the definition of manhood and the context that we teach, where that definition plays out are really transferable and in every season. So men are catching the vision, and then they want to come back and serve, and they're telling their friends and people are still coming. So, but I just don't think there are a lot of, I don't think there are a lot of programs like this out there. And so I feel like we've kind of like it's almost like we've stumbled on to something and it's and recognizing the value of what we're doing. And so everybody's kind of like protecting it, investing in it and like, like pouring into it.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:18:27] And you're, you're investing and you're discipling the dads or the mentors, and then they in turn their sons, but alongside of other men. And so there's this, I feel like there's this wrap around where it's not a program for one dad to go do on his own. Is that, am I correct in that?
Michael Warren: [00:18:44] Yeah. Well, I think what you're talking about is important. This is a ministry to dads. Now, people see a backcountry camp out in Alaska or oh, man, that sounds great. The the boys are going to love that. The boys are going to make a lot of memories. That's true. But the ministry is to the dads. If they can get their heads and their heart around this vision for manhood, they can apply it to their own lives and live it out. Well, then they have something to share with their sons. And if if the weekend, this special weekend, last two days, three days, well, that's going to end. And they're going to go home. And so if, if, if there's been a transference of a language that they can speak and principles that are timeless, no matter what happens, there's an incident at school. If there's trouble in a relationship, if there's trouble in the home, there's already in place a language to speak to bring some challenge to that. And so, again, a ministry to the dads and kind of a legacy ministry in that. I just can't see a context, over the entire life span of a man, where this definition of manhood in the context where it play, where it plays out, are not relevant. And I've tried. I've tried to find like, does this timeout, you know, or will this ever become culturally insignificant? Man, I don't think so.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:20:10] So needed. So needed. Now we've talked a little bit around the idea of a clear definition of biblical manhood. And and I believe that like there's a equipping fathers. This is just what I read from our dialog ahead of time. But the goal is to equip fathers and mentors to communicate and transfer a clear vision of biblical manhood. And then there's this is how we do it comes next. But the, so Robert Lewis gives like four kind of key pillars or principles, like this is what a man is, a biblical man. Which, I actually don't know them off the top of my head. I've read it a couple times. Do you know the four, the four keys?
Michael Warren: [00:20:46] I do. And here's what's cool, if you were to if you were to walk downstairs on a Sunday and pull a man from our men's ministry aside, I'd be like, can you define biblical manhood? He would be like, yes. A real man, R-E-A-L, R, rejects passivity. A man rejects passivity. E, expects God's greater reward. A, accepts responsibility, and L, leads courageously. So, rejects passivity, expects God's greater reward, accepts responsibility, leads courageously. Now, those kind of rolled off the tongue. But expect God's greater reward, what does that? Well, that means delayed gratification. And that is a principle that every man needs to entertain and think about. Like, you know, I'm going to make sacrifice now, but I know what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. And, you know, I've got energy, I've got time, I have my purity. I have these things that are God given that once I spend them, I don't get them back. And so, so anyway, those are the main principles, this R-E-A-L. And then what's important to mention is that we call them the four W's. So the four W's are the contexts where you can directly apply the R-E-A-L, right. So the four W's are a man has a work to do, a will to obey, a woman to love and a world to serve. And so, you know, if you think of a, you know, like a 12 year old boy who's joining up with us and he's taking, you know, a woman to love, he's like, well, I don't really like girls. It's like, well, yeah, but you have mom at home and grandma down the street, and your cousin, who's a girl, comes over all the time and these young ladies in your class. And this, that's where, those are the women to love right now. And then when you become an older teenager, that context changes. And even when you get married, right. I have a woman to love, it's my wife. But there are also women around me all the time in my workplace, in my community, other moms and women that are tied to that and there is like a code of conduct this, R-E-A-L What is it, what does R-E-A-L look like in how I cherish my wife and also and how I engage with these other women? So just making a case for this clear definition is gold. The contexts are gold. And, you know, you get a 13 year old, 12 year old and a, you know, somebody in their 60's, 70's, 80's. It it always applies.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:23:20] It does. It does. What are some examples of between the back country moments with other dads and their boys for your three sons? Some examples of what it looks like kind of in the between the out in the back country. What are some either rhythms or moments or, kind of key elements to the experience that, that kind of span in between the gaps?
Michael Warren: [00:23:42] Do you mean like, how does it play out?
Jeff Zaugg: [00:23:44] Yeah.
Michael Warren: [00:23:45] Like, what does it look like?
Jeff Zaugg: [00:23:46] Yeah, exactly.
Michael Warren: [00:23:46] So I was thinking of this, this morning because I was thinking, you know, it's one thing to have these definitions. It's one thing to have a great weekend, but like what's the what's the long term fruit? What does it look like? We have an 18 year old son who is a servant in our family. And I feel like we really saw this definition activated in him when he got keys to a car. Because when you, I'll cry thinking about this, because when you get keys to a car, you've got, you've got like this at this level up and in terms of access. And the ability to just kind of go. And he has been a servant to our family in terms of like the, the shuttling of two younger kids around the town for sports and activities and to school and from school. And he has just stepped up and we have been so grateful for his help and his willingness to wait and to be patient and to do pickups and to run around the school building looking for his brothers and sisters to make sure that they're covered for a ride home. And it just, just that's like, that's, he is exercising, he's rejecting passivity, R, and it's a world to serve. He's serving. And, it sounds really simple and practical, but it's not. The other place I've seen it with my, with my 18 year old is, he has had some dating relationships where, you know, he has, he's just had to put it to work. And, he has put together some communications with some of the, of the dads of the gals that he's been with and just in kind of how he sets himself up inside of a dating relationship, that, you know, it wasn't pressure from us. It was more like, we checked in with him and we're like, hey, how are you applying what you know to be true? And he's like, let me show you. And so, you know, it's like not waiting for us to initiate. It's looked a little bit different from my second son. It's a different from my second son because he's different, right. And I think one of the things that he has wrestled with over time is just trying new things. And I feel like we've been able to appeal to this, like, hey, less of a boy, more of a man, R-E-A-L for contexts with the W's. And I think that that the result for him has been that he has tried new things and has been very courageous in stepping into social situations, activities he's never tried before, and just kind of walking in with his shoulders, kind of push back a little bit and and giving it a go. I think he's been surprised because out of those activities, he's found skills that he's never thought he's had and, friends that he wouldn't have had unless he stepped in. So anyway, just some practical testimony of like, okay, so what's it look like?
Jeff Zaugg: [00:26:48] Thank you so much for joining us for episode 323 with Michael Warren. As I mentioned in the introduction, this is a two part conversation, so there is a bunch more that he unpacks that helps us take this even more applicable to our families or to dads in our area. So all the conversation links, all the transcripts and the quotes and kind of key action points are all going to be a dadawesome.org/podcast. Guys, thanks for listening this week. Thank you for choosing to be a DadAwesome for your family. I'm praying for you guys. Have a wonderful week!
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· 17:38 - "The longevity that we've enjoyed has been tied to the fact that it's really transforming men's hearts and their families and the definition of manhood and the context that we teach, where that definition plays out are really transferable and in every season."
· 20:54 - "A real man, R-E-A-L, R, rejects passivity. A man rejects passivity. E, expects God's greater reward. A, accepts responsibility, and L, leads courageously. So, rejects passivity, expects God's greater reward, accepts responsibility, leads courageously. Expect God's greater reward, what does that mean? Well, that means delayed gratification. That is a principle that every man needs to entertain and think about. I'm going to make sacrifice now, but I know what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. I've got energy, I've got time, I have my purity. I have these things that are God given that once I spend them, I don't get them back. Those are the main principles, this R-E-A-L. What's important to mention is that we call them the four W's. The four W's are the contexts where you can directly apply the R-E-A-L. So the four W's arem a man has a work to do, a will to obey, a woman to love and a world to serve."
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