368 | The Four Pillars of Manhood, Contagious Courage, and Living Vertically (Dave Wilson)
Episode Description
What does it mean to be a R.E.A.L. man? In this episode, Dave Wilson breaks down the four pillars of manhood that will challenge and change you. Plus, you’ll hear practical tips on prayer, fasting, and leaving a good legacy. Tune in and get inspired to be the husband, father, and protector you were created to be.
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Dave Wilson and his wife, Ann, are hosts of FamilyLife Today® and authors of two books. They have been married for more than 38 years and have spent the last 33 years teaching and mentoring couples and parents across the country. Dave and Ann have three grown sons, as well as three daughters-in-law and seven grandchildren.
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· Courage is contagious, but so is passivity.
· Real men reject passivity, engage with God, accept responsibility, and lead courageously.
· True life is only found vertically.
· Do what is right, even if no one is cheering for you.
· The next time you feel afraid, step up, lead boldly, and trust God with the outcome.
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· Send a Voice Message to DadAwesome
· Apply to join the next DadAwesome Accelerator Cohort: Email awesome@dadawesome.org
· Subscribe to DadAwesome Messages: Text the word “Dad” to (651) 370-8618
· Vertical Marriage: The One Secret That Will Change Your Marriage by Dave & Ann Wilson
· Raising a Modern-Day Knight: A Father's Role in Guiding His Son to Authentic Manhood by Robert Lewis
· How to Speak Life to Your Husband: When All You Want to Do Is Yell at Him by Ann Wilson
· Dan Orlovsky takes a moment to pray for Damar Hamlin | ESPN
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Podcast Intro: [00:00:01] Being a great father takes a massive amount of courage. Instead of being an amazing leader and a decent dad, I want to be an amazing dad and a decent leader. The oldest dad in the world gave me this assignment, which means you must be ready for it. As a dad I get on my knees and I fight for my kids. Let us be those dads who stop the generational pass down of trauma. I want encounters with God where He teaches me what to do with my kids. I know I'm going to be an awesome dad because I'm gonna give it my all.
Dave Wilson: [00:00:39] As men, we've got to be bigger than I'm going to just do where I'm applauded and cheered. No matter if I'm applauded or cheered, I'm going to do the right thing. Engaging with God and accept responsibility and not being passive, stepping into it. It doesn't matter if I'm going to get cheered for this. There is one cheering you. You may not hear it anywhere else, hopefully you do, but you may never hear it. And that's not what we're doing it for. We're doing the right thing at the right time for the right reason. And there is One that sees and is encouraging us and empowering us to do it. And He's saying, way to go, young man. Way to go.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:01:15] Welcome back to DadAwesome. Guysm today, episode 368, I have Dave Wilson joining me. I'll explain a little more about him in a moment. But I want to remind you guys, we send text messages out from DadAwesome to remind you of podcasts that have launched, also to send dad challenges throughout the week or resources, things that we found helpful and we want to pass on to you guys. So, you can sign up for free. Just simply text "dad" to the number 651-370-8618. And it's also linked in all the show notes is this number but simply text "dad" to the number 651-370-8618, we'd love to stay in touch through sending you a text message. We text 3 to 4 times throughout the week with resources, encouragement, challenges. So today, though, Dave Wilson, Episode 368. Dave and I met a few months ago at a fatherhood ministry event. So grateful to have him give his time, his passion, his wisdom. He's a grandpa. He's a pastor. He's a radio host. He hosts a radio show with his wife on FamilyLife Today. He has written No Perfect Parents, a book on parenting, Vertical Marriage, a book on marriage. And we go all over the place in today's conversation. So super grateful to have Dave Wilson joining us, this is episode 368. I wanted to start with, there's this story and I think I have the facts right, your boys were in high school and a dad went to a gas station and discovered, just to his disgust, that they were selling pornography at this gas station. And this dad decided to take action. So, I think, I don't think the first, you weren't the first dad, but you were recruited in. Do I have this right? The setup?
Dave Wilson: [00:03:13] Yeah. Yeah, It's my buddy John. Yeah.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:03:15] Yeah. Would you tell, I think courage is contagious when you rein people in and say let's go do something. Let's, let's make a difference. Would you kind of share that story with us?
Dave Wilson: [00:03:24] You know I love that courage is contagious. I'm literally preaching next Tuesday to maybe five, six hundred men down in Orlando and they want me to talk about courage. I'm stealing that. I am stealing that.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:03:38] Well, I got it from you, so it's leapfrog backwards.
Dave Wilson: [00:03:41] I mean, one of my stories I'm going to use is David slaying Goliath. IN, you know, 1st Samuel. And yeah, after he slayed him, all the rest of the warriors ran into the fight, you know, you're right. His courage is contagious for a whole army. Anyway, you don't want me here preaching. You want me here to telling the story. John, My buddy, John and I and seven other guys have been in a men's group 30 years. 30 years we've been together. We've raised our kids, now we're grandfathers and we're raising our grandkids together. But that all started when John came to a men's retreat we did at our church. A church I helped found 35 years ago, and I think it was our first ever men's retreat. So we had a couple hundred men, didn't know what we were doing. Like, Yeah, let's get away for the weekend and, you know, talk about the four pillars of manhood that we sort of discussed at our church. And one of them was from Robert Lewis' book, Raising A Modern Day Night: A Real Man Rejects Passivity. So it's this whole idea that when God leads you to do something, maybe even courageous, you're not passive, you act. You, you know, boys are passive, men act. And so I've been preaching on that at this retreat. And next thing I know, John calls me, says, Hey, man, you know, I went into the the gas station a mile from the high schooll, and our kids were young at that time. They've all been through that high school, now. I'vw married is kids now. But this was when they were like toddlers, maybe ten years old or so. He said, I went in there, they're selling porn. And again, this is back in the day when it was Playboy's penthouse, you know, on a counter. I don't even know if that stuff around anymore, but it was behind, you could see it, you know. And so I guess John went in there and some guy who was not the owner said, you know, I'm not the owner and I'm not going to remove this stuff. He was sort of perturbed that John said something. And John wasn't a jerk. He wasn't yelling at the guy. He just said, Hey, listen, I'm a dad. I've got kids in this neighborhood, basically, the high school's a mile away. I'm just asking you, you need could you remove that? He's like, yeah, sort of blew them off, like, you know, get out of here, old man. So John said something like, I'll be back. So he calls me, he goes, you going back with me? I go, What do you mean, go back? He does, I want to go back with a, you know, group of guys. And I think if there's 3 or 4 or 5 or 10 of us, they'll listen to us. I'm like, okay, I'm in. And, you know, Jeff, I actually is like, okay, I'm the guy that preached this, this weekend. I said, reject passively, I can't be passive.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:06:18] Got to say yes.
Dave Wilson: [00:06:18] So, I'm like let's go. And I, it was only like five of us. And we walked in there and I'm telling you what, we weren't jerks. We weren't loud. We weren't even, you know, we didn't even show anger. It was concern. It was a bit of intensity. And we just walked in there and that same guy was behind the counter. And so he remembered John, he's like, no.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:06:42] It's back.
Dave Wilson: [00:06:43] It's like five of them, you know. And again, we just said, we're all dads. We love our kids. We love everybody's kids. We're concerned. We want to protect. That's what we think we're called to do is protect our community, the high schools a mile away. We're just asking somehow in the course of an hour, this guy got the owner and I think the owner wasn't there. I think he actually drove in and we just said the same thing to him. And he goes, you know what? I respect you guys. I agree with you guys. I'm going to remove it. And it was gone. And man, it was one of my first experiences to watch when men come together as fathers and husbands and say, we can make a difference. We can protect our community. We can protect our kids. God, God moved. It was a pretty cool moment. I can't believe you brought that up. I mean that was, gee whiz, 40 some years ago. 30, 35 years ago.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:07:38] Sometimes I dig back through old Father's Day messages or this or that to find. I can't actually recall where I heard you share that story, but it, to me, stood out because of the same thing. I have not been invited by another dad to let's go do this thing. Let's go bring our presence, our, let's be protectors and let's, you know, in a community like it's just it's not common in the church that I'm a part of, in the circle of friends of like, let's go do this thing, on behalf of our kids. So I love that approach. I know that you are a cheerleader, like you cheer for your family, you cheer for dads, you cheererd. And that just resonates with us at DadAwesome. We're cheering for dads and you've got seven grandkids and your three sons, now, I'm sure you're cheering for them as they raised these, these, you know, these little ones. What are you cheering like, what are some of the things you're like, I love that this is happening? I love that my son is doing this or that. Are there any just highlight things that you would point out that you're cheering for and you, you believe that those are maybe transferable to the dads listening?
Dave Wilson: [00:08:44] Yeah. I mean, the first thing because my mind is that whole idea of not being passive and you know, when my boys were little, I was developing an understanding like, what does a dad look like? What's a Godly dad do? I didn't grow up in a Godly home. I had two alcoholic parents and they got divorced when I was a little boy. So when I got married, you know, I just become a Christian my junior year in college, got married two years later. So I was pretty new, I was pretty new in the faith. And I didn't have any idea, honestly, I had no idea what is a Godly husband and dad look like. So I remember I was searching for mentors and one of them became Dennis Rainey, who is the founder and president of FamilyLife, who I now work for and do a radio podcast for them. Dennis became sort of a mentor. We started speaking for the FamilyLife Weekend to Remember, marriage getaway. I was, at that time, a dad of, I think, a six year old and a four year old and a one year old. So I was just trying to figure it out. But, you know, Dennis became, and other guys too, but really became a role model. Like this is what a Godly man looks like, this is what a Godly husband and dad looks like. And so even what I just shared that idea of not being passive but active, you know, that's something I, I remember training my boys in when they were 10 and 12 and 14 and 15, all the way until they left the home when they headed to college at 17, 18 years old. So again, it wasn't, it was just concepts and then we had to live it out. So I think now as a grandfather with three sons, my older just turned, we had a birthday party for him last night here in Michigan. He turned 39. I can't believe I'm a father of a 39 year old. He and his wife were over, grandkids were over. I think one of the big things I've tried to pass on is don't be passive, be a man who sees a need and acts, be a man who sees his wife needing him to be sensitive in that moment, be sensitive and gentle. Or maybe she needs him to be firm in that moment, be firm. I mean, I think passivity in us men is rampant and that, and by the way, I think that's contagious.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:11:04] It is.
Dave Wilson: [00:11:04] You know, if you're around other passive men, nobody's doing anything. You just like, yeah, you just get lazy. But when you're around men that are acting, that aren't lazy in their marriage, they see their wife needing them. They step up. That's a great word, Step up. And, you know, whatever the need is, whether it's in the community or in your church or in your family. So watching my boys, and again, they're not perfect, just like their dad, me, who is not perfect. But man, watching them, you know, reject passivity and be the husband their, their wife needs and longs for, be the dad their kids are looking for. I mean, we sat there the other night with C.J., our oldest, and, you know, we go around the table, my Ann, my wife, Ann, has instituted as a, as a birthday practice every year, whoever is sitting at the table, and usually it's a whole table full, you know, we pause and say, okay, let's look at C.J. and tell him something great that we see in him. Let's, you know, speak words of life to him. I remember when she first started doing that, our boys were little. I just sort of rolled my eyes, like really we're going to sit around and I'll tell you what, it's magic. You just watch their chest come out because, you know, when anybody affirms you, it feels great. And so it ends up being a spiritual like milestone in their lives. To just pause for a minute, doesn't take very long, probably took ten minutes and just one by one, you know, think of something that you really want to say. You're great at this. I appreciate this about you. And his wife did it as well. That's powerful. And as a grandpa now, it's like, okay, we've, God has enabled us to change the legacy because, you know, if that doesn't happen, I'm going to continue the legacy of my dad. You know, Scripture says the sins of the father visit down the third and fourth generation. That's, that's a promise. It's going to happen unless you intentionally stop it. And a lot of people don't know, in that same verse in Exodus 20, God says yes, but the Father who is righteous, I will bless his legacy to a thousand generations. So, I mean, there's this promise on both sides. You better be very careful how you live because it's going into your legacy, good or bad. So to watch that is pretty powerful.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:13:22] And we're going to loop back to being a defender, being wise, being careful how we live. I want to make sure to connect, though, words of life with rejecting passivity. Like we can be passive with our words or we can step in. I know, it's your wife, Ann's, idea, right. The words of life, but man, to get to carry in and press in and think and pray about what are words I can speak over. I mean, that is, that's a immediately, us dads, can take that and move that forward. We've, we've talked how to reject passivity a couple rounds and I knew you were going to go there because it's a deep passion of yours. But a real man, and we love Robert Lewis, we had him on a couple of years ago, and I know Jon Tyson's taken some kind of new approach to these, these charges as well, and he's a friend of our ministry. But a real man, the R stands for, and I know these are the four pillars of manhood that you've kind of packaged with their insight but, reject passivity, engage with God, accept responsibility, lead courageously. Did I get them right? All four?
Dave Wilson: [00:14:24] You got them.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:14:25] Would you take just a moment to unpack the other three? So, jumping into the E of real engage, engaging with God, just a little bit for us dads.
Dave Wilson: [00:14:34] Yeah. I'll do a quick. Yeah, I mean, that's the one, the E, I changed from Robert Lewis. And I know Robert, Robert was on our speaker team with FamilyLife. Dennis Rainey went to Robert's church in Little Rock. So I remember sitting on a back of a bus with Robert at a conference and this was way back and say, Hey, you know, I'm, I'm looking at your stuff and you didn't really call them pillars, you called them more like characteristics. I'm thinking of this and, you know, everybody wants to be a real man. So could I put them in a different order? R-E-A-L and I'd really like to change the E. And he's like, Dude, this isn't my stuff. This is, this is for men to help them. You do whatever you want with it. So, what a blessing. So yeah, the E for me and I, and I, and I've said this many times, I think the E should come first because it's the pillar that the other three build off of. I once had a guy, I said this at a conference and he comes up and he goes, Hey, if you want the E to go first, you could say, you know, instead of calling it be a real man, you could say Be an earl, man. And I'm like, Yeah, that's not going to work. So it's still the E because R-E-A-L. But the E is engage with God because I think it's still true today, and it was when I was writing this 20, 30 years ago. Men think real men are tough and strong, they don't really need God. If you need a, if you need God, you're sort of a, you're, you're inept. You're like, come on, dude, you go to church, you're religious guy. There's this culture. It's like, men are tough and they don't need God. And the truth is, we know this, we're weak. We're absolutely, you know, we're wretched sinners. And without God, we're nothing. And so, I believe engages with God is like that, that's a man who realizes I am weak but in God, I'm strong. You know, in my weakness I'm made strong, Paul said. So it's that concept that a real man is pursuing and rejecting passivity like crazy in his walk with God. It starts there out of that relationship with the King of Kings and Lord of Lord, out of that, I have the strength, not my strength, God's strength to reject passively and accept responsibility and to lead with courage in my family and in my community, in my church, and all kinds of areas. So it is number one. And I think, you know, most churches, I pastored, was a founder of a church for 30 years, you know, the women are going after God with a passion. The men are sort of following and it's like, no, let's create a community of men where the women are looking at us gone, man, this dude is, he's after, he's, he's chasing after God. My image for engagement with God, because I'm a football guy, was chaplain for the Lions for three decades is you know kickoff team, where they're flying down the field and they are not just sort of trying to get to the ball carrier. They're doing whatever it takes. They'll go through any wall, get that ball. That's my image of men chasing after God. Now God's not running away, actually, God's running toward us. But is it like passively sort of open in your Bible, it is like I am a man and I'm going to be in the Word, I'm going to know the Word. I'm going to pray on my knees. I'm going to lead my family, not passively, but actively. And that all starts with engaging with God.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:17:58] But would you just add, because I know this is part of your weekly rhythm, a day of the week that you pray and fast for your kids? What, is it Monday? Do I have that right?
Dave Wilson: [00:18:09] It's Friday.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:18:10] Friday, Yeah. Yeah. What's, where did that come from and how is that tied in with engaging with God?
Dave Wilson: [00:18:16] Yeah. Friday Fast Day started when my oldest, who were just talking about, C.J. was born. I was listening to Focus on the Family, which is still around, but back then James Dobson was on there and he talked about the fast day every week. And I remember I was just a brand new dad, literally, What am I doing? I don't know what I'm doing. I wasn't a Christian home. How do I do this? And I heard that and I said to Ann, my wife, I said, you know, I'm going to start, I'm going to, I'm going to pray on Fridays. I'm going to take Friday all day. And it's only till dinnertime. I've done 30 day fast, that kind of thing. So when I say it's only till dinner, it's like, that's nothing. You know, a lot of people are not to used to it. It's like, it's not that hard. But yeah, I thought I'd do it for maybe a couple of weeks or a month. I really did. And it's 39 years now. Every once while it'll be a Monday or Wednesday just because of things going on on Friday. But, I remember I used to the lead out Detroit Lions Bible study on Fridays during the season and all the guys because we do it over lunch and they'd always joke like, Dave's not going to eat because today's his Fast Day. But then they started becoming dads and they're like, I'm going to join you. So there's dads all around the country and we have a group text that we sort of text each other on Fridays. And so basically it became every time I get hungry during that day, which is all afternoon, I'm praying for my my three boys now, my three daughter in laws and seven grandkids. But yeah, it became something that became like a conscious, consecrated day that guaranteeing blessings from God because I'm doing it, but it was just sort of a day to remind myself, this is the most important job I've got, being a husband, being a dad, more important than anything else I do. These three boys are more important than thousands at a church. They're important, but there are a lot of them are strangers. These three are mine, you know, and so God gave me that responsibility, which is one of the pillars of manhood. Accept responsibility to be the husband and dad that God's called us to be. And so that was just a simple way to do that. And I tell you what, I'll add this, you know, when I did my son's weddings, as their pastor, but also their dad, I got to marry all three sons. And I'm looking at this bride and she doesn't know it, but I've been praying for her probably before she was born. Some of them and you know, I'm in tears just thinking, look at what God has done. They've married Godly women. They're amazing women. They're amazing moms. And in some ways, Ann and I just, you know, she's sitting in the front row there in the chapel and we're looking at each other like this is an answer to prayer. You know, that she's joining and she has a fast day as well with some other women, it's not on Friday, we're not going to do it together. Two different days. But, you know, it's just getting on your knees and saying, God, we're asking You. It's, it's you know, it's an outworking of engaging with God. We're asking You to do what we can never do.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:21:17] And in the book that you wrote, Vertical Marriage is about the difference of horizontal. And I mean, there's a lot of threads that we won't get into all of them today. But the, the second pillar here of engaging with God is just like, let's reorient our focus, fasting does that, prayer does that, and it blesses our marriage, it blesses our, our future daughter, for me, I pray for my future son in laws. I've got four daughters and I'm like, yes, like I'm going to, I want to I want to anchor that. And I don't have a weekly rhythm right now. So, so I'll let you know if I end up copying you and jump in, I'll let you know.
Dave Wilson: [00:21:50] You can do it. Go for an hour or two if, if the whole day is too long. But and then, yeah, once a year, I would do it at Easter. I would take about a month and just don't eat food. There's a lot of ways to do fasting. I would just do that every year and part of it was preparing to preach on Easter Sunday or Easter weekend. But yeah, it became a rhythm worth doing. And the vertical part is just, you know, you're never going to find life anywhere horizontally. No person, no amount of money, no amount of pleasure, you name it, it's never going to fill. And that's what we do in marriage. We think our spouse is going to fill us up and then we're disappointed and every marriage is disappointed. We're like, we didn't marry the wrong person, we're looking in the wrong place. We shouldn't be looking horizontally, you got to look vertically. And when you find life in Christ, you come back to your marriage, same thing as being a dad, you come back to your marriage, not wanting to be filled, you are filled through the living water of Jesus, who says I will overflow you in John's, John Gospel John Chapter 7. And so now you're a giver to your wife. You're laying down your life to serve her rather than the man she serve you and meet your needs and fill you up. Again, there's, there's still that happening, but you're, you're a different guy. You're filled from the King of Kings. He's filled you and now you come back and you're, you're a giver. You're doing what we're called to do in Ephesians 5, love your wife as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her. You can't do that if you're always needy, wanting her to fill you up. It's like no, I'm filled. I've been engaging with God. I'm going to reject passivity, I'm going to turn my eyes toward her and say, okay, I want to love you in a way that you feel loved and deny myself. That happens only because you can, because you're filled. There you go, there's the whole book.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:23:40] Yes. Get the book. Get the small group series. Yes. Let's go to the third pillar, though. Accept responsibility.
Dave Wilson: [00:23:47] Yeah, that's a big one. I mean, whenever I think of that one, I think of this phrase, no excuses. And it's just, it's easy to make excuses for why I didn't whatever. I'm a victim. You know, I didn't have a dad, so I can't be a dad. I never saw, you know, my dad was an alcoholic. I can't be a husband. Those are excuses. And it's also playing the victim like, well, you know, if you were raised like I was, you'd understand and accept responsibility is like, okay, I know there's pain in my past. I got to process that. I got to sit down. I sat down with counselors over years and understood how that affected me as a boy and then as a man and as a husband, as a dad. And that processing is really important to see how the blood of Jesus heals us. The resurrection power of Christ can heal those areas. So you need to take that journey, but then at the end of the day, you get to say, okay, it's on me. I accept responsibility. I'm going to step up and reject passivity and lead my family the way they need to be led. Even though I feel ill equipped to do it, I've never seen it. I don't know what to do. It's like I accept responsibility. No more excuses, no more blame. I'm going to step up and get the job done. And again, you know, if I talk about David and Goliath, you know, you've got a teenage boy sitting there with a, an army of men and nobody's accepting responsibility. Say, I'll go fight this guy. You got a boy, it doesn't matter how old you are to be a man. It's character. It's traits of pillars of manhood. And he says, I'll go fight him. You know, we don't know how old David was, 13. 14, maybe. And we got 30 year old, 40 year old men who have been trained their whole life to, for this moment, are hiding behind bushes, yeah, afraid. And so it's interesting that teenage boy models for us in that situation, okay, there's a guy who's rejected passivity. I think, because of his walk with God in the wilderness as a shepherd boy, where he's, he's, you know, communing with God every day and watching God deliver him from the lion and the bear. He says that to Saul the King. And then he says, Here I am, Send me. It's, it's I'm going to accept responsibility. I think that's a picture of us leading our families, praying with our families. We have to, at some point say, okay, I've been making excuses my whole life. I've been blaming my dad or mom or my situation or the coach who didn't let me. I'm going to step up and say, it's me. I'm going to accept responsibility. God's calling me. I'm, I'm scared to death. I don't know how to do this or even what it's going to look like, but I'm going and I'm going to try. That's accepting responsibility.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:26:36] Dave, I'm thinking about the imagery of the kicking team of running the field with fury, going after that, like trying to tackle that runner and, and, and that the crowd is going to be cheering like crazy. They're going nuts, right. And in a lot of spheres, both engaging with God and accepting responsibility, we're not being cheered for. We don't feel cheered for as dads who are more hungry for the Lord, who are memorizing scripture, who are pressing in and fasting. We don't, maybe don't feel cheered for and, and then accepting responsibility around fatherhood. I think if we go press in at the gym, we go press in, in athletics, you know, whatever the rec league you're part of. If you go press in in the workplace, you, we get cheered for in all those other spheres. But as dads, like action, as husbands actually are accepting responsibility, it's kind of can be quiet, like the crowd's not cheering. And that's the, I think that's the lie. It's the, it's the deceit that actually heaven is cheering for us. And those two realms of accepting responsibility and engaging with God. What would you add around this idea of maybe it feels like we're cheered for more in other verticals?
Dave Wilson: [00:27:48] Yeah, I mean, that's definitely true. I don't know if you know about Ann's book coming out. You just described it.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:27:55] Tell me. Yeah, tell us about it.
Dave Wilson: [00:27:57] I thought He must know about this. It's coming out in May. And, you know, we're here talking in January. Yeah, there's a story, again, this is a little, little sidelight. But the story that we told in Vertical that ends up being the, the, the foundation of the whole book. And I don't know if you heard this or read
Jeff Zaugg: [00:28:19] It's her cheering for you, right? Yes, I have. That's what... Yeah.
Dave Wilson: [00:28:22] A long story, but the gist of it is I said I should have said this to her in our family room. I said this to 500 women that she was asked to speak at.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:28:32] On the stage? Yes.
Dave Wilson: [00:28:34] It's terrible how it came out. But it basically, I just said to the women, I don't know if you understand this, but it's easy for a man to feel applauded everywhere we go in our job or different things. And I feel like when I walk in the door, all I hear his boo. We call it our boo story. So it ends up being this moment where Ann just was flabber. She's like, What in the world was that when we got in the car? Because she's on stage, she can't really respond. But she was so hurt. First of all, I've never said that to her. I say it to thousand women or whatever at this Mothers of Preschoolers conference. And she basically looked at me and said, I'm not booing you. I'm helping you. And so she was saying, there are areas of your life that nobody out there sees. They see Dave, the pastor. And, you know, and, you know, a long short of the story is she realized over months that booing doesn't light a man up. It actually demotivates us and we go where we're cheered. And so sometimes we men are working too many hours, and at the root of it is, well, they think I'm good there and I come home, I get booed. So her book coming out in May is called How to Speak Life to Your Husband When All You Want to do is Yell at Him.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:29:49] Yes.
Dave Wilson: [00:29:50] So that's sort of the concept is like a lot of women hear that story and they go, no, that's me. I want to do is yell at this guy, he's failing here, he's failing there. And it's sort of to say, women, you have a power given to you from God, which is amazing. And you can use it to build up or tear down people. So we'll see what happens. I write in the end of each chapter sort of a husband's perspective on what Ann just wrote. But I think that whole concept is what you're getting at. That is what happens with us men. We do go where we're applauded and often we're applauded outside the home more than we are in the home. Our kids aren't going to go, Hey, way to go, Dad. Thanks for disciplining me. Or thanks for stepping in. They're not going to. And until they're men or women, they might say something, thanks, Dad. I didn't appreciate it at the time, but I really, I appreciate you. You defended me, you stepped up for me, you said hard things to me that I need to here to grow. You're not gonna hear that when they're ten, but you might hear that when they're 20 or 30. And I'm at that stage now, you know, with 30 year olds. And I've heard the things I did wrong and I've heard some things, thanks for doing the right thing. So I think as men, we got to, we got to be bigger than I'm going to just do where I'm applauded and cheered. It doesn't matter if I'm applauded or cheered, I'm going to do the right thing. And the right thing is, you know, engaging with God and accepting responsibility and not being passive, stepping into it. So accepting responsibility means it doesn't matter if I'm going to get cheered for this, there is One cheering you. You know, a lot of pro athletes will say or any athlete say, I'm playing for an audience of one and He is cheering and you may not hear it anywhere else. Hopefully you do. You may never hear it. And that's not what we're doing it for. We're doing the right thing at the right time for the right reason. And there is One that sees and is encouraging us and empowering us to do it. And He's saying, Way to go, young man. Way to go.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:31:49] Wow. The way we frame that is be a, live as a loved son of God, before you try to be a loving father or leader in your home. So, so the identity piece first, but then there's a humble way and maybe, I mean, your wife, Ann, her book, you know, just not too many months from when we released this, like as a tool to humbly say, man, I just feel, you know, maybe it is you feel a little bit booed or critiqued on the home front in a way to humbly say like, how do we reframe? So it's a cheering for because and it's celebrating growth because we all want to grow. We don't want to stay the same. So let's, let's jump forward into the the last pillar of lead courageously. Could you unpack that a little bit?
Dave Wilson: [00:32:31] Yeah. And that's just simply courageous means, you may be scared to death. We often think, people that are courageous, they don't ever, they're not that afraid. They just they have a courage I don't have. I think a lot of courageous men and women are scared. It isn't like they're not afraid. They're afraid when you step into an area that you don't know what the outcome is going to be, you just feel like man is the right thing. Somebody is going to say something, do something, that's leadership. And you're just like, okay, God, here we go. I'm going to not sit in the boat, you're on the water, Your calling me to walk on the water. I think I'm going to drown. But I know You're, You're asking me to step out of the boat and go, You know, Peter walking on the water, That's a, that's a man of courage. It's like when you step out and you lead with courage, even though you're afraid, I feel like often God turns liquid to solid, you know, you're going to walk on water, you're going to experience something the other 11 disciples didn't experience. They watched Peter, you know, and they're sort of passive. And one of them was like, God, Jesus is out there, He's calling me. I'm going. Nobody else did. They're all like, We're holding on right here. Do you realize we're in a storm that, you know you can't walk? And so one guy's a water walker and 11 or, you know, are boat potatoes, whatever you want to call them, you know, they don't move. So I think it's you know, when you sense the, the leading of God in an area, it could be as simple as this, Pray with your wife. You know, pray with your, your, your teenage daughter. Step in to a situation and the boy that's dating your daughter, sit down with him and you know defend your daughter and say, let me, let me give you some parameter's here's, young man. Here's what, here's how it works in the Wilson House. If you're going to step in and date my daughter, whatever it looks like. Have that conversation, say those things, write the check, you know, if you want to give to a ministry. Whatever it is, it's like there's a lot of fearful moments every day in a man's life. And, you know, the moments that you're supposed to step and lead in, lead. You want to hear a great story? Dan Orlovsky, I don't know if you know that name, but Dan's on ESPN Broadcaster. He's on a show during the NFL football season called NFL Live. It's live every day at 4:00, Monday through Friday. And all they do is talk about the previous week's games. And he's a former 15 year NFL quarterback. So he's very intelligent on how it all works. He's really good at what he does. Dan was a backup quarterback here in Detroit when I was the Lions Chapel and got the lead him to Christ, his wife, Tiffany to Christ. They didn't have a kids then. Now they have four kids, triplet, triplets and a girl, triplet boys. So, you know, they're now like eight, nine, ten years old. Anyway, great friend of mine. I've been a mentor for him for years. We're working on a book together right now about manhood. But anyway, he's on NFL Live the day after, this is a Tuesday after DaMar Hamlin, defensive back for the Buffalo Bills, the night before Monday Night Football. You might remember this ,cardiac arrest. He dies on the field. I know their chaplain, Buffalo Bills, Lynn was laying his hands on him on the field in Cincinnati, praying for him. And everybody knows anything about football, knows, you know, he ends up in a hospital in Cincinnati. They revive him. He's playing. I think he had 3 interceptions last week. I mean, he's, he's back. I did chapel for the Buffalo Bills when they came in 3 or 4 weeks ago to play the Detroit Lions and Damar's in the front row. And I actually told this story and DaMar said, I've never told this story with DaMar in the room, anyone in the room, he's a foot from me. And the story was, you know, I'm at home on Tuesday after that Monday night, I heard about it. Everybody that is a football fan knew, man, a guy died on the field last night, that he's fighting for his life in a hospital right now in Cincinnati. And nobody knows the end of the story because I just told you the end of the story. But I start getting texts from guys that used to be Detroit Lions. We're in a group text. Did you see what Dan just did on TV? Like, what? Turn on NFL Live. So, I turn it on and I rewind it. And Dan looks at the camera and says, hey, you know, everybody's saying a prayer for Damar. We should pray for Damar. I think we should pray like right now. So I'm going to take a moment and I'm going to pray for Damar. And he closed his eyes and he asked God to heal Damar, on national TV, live. And I don't know if you know this, but ESPN is owned by Disney. Disney Doesn't always like this kind of stuff happening, especially, you know, by one of their spokesmen on Weather Channel. So I'm thinking this Dude could lose his job, this could go that way, who knows. And so, of course, when the show is over, I call Dan and I text him and then I call him. And we actually did a show on our FamilyLife Today broadcast with Dan talking about this. But the back story, Dan said as I was driving to the studio that day, I called my producer and said, Hey, just a heads up, I feel like I should pray for Damar, and I might do it on the broadcast today. And it's live, they don't delay it. They don't cut, it's live. And I go, What's your producer saying? He said, my producer said, again, and he's in his car driving. He said, my producer said, Dan, we will never ask you to be anything but Dan, you be Dan if that's what you think you're supposed to do. And you know, we're not going to stop ya, and Dan's like, okay. But then Dan told me and he said, So then I told Marcus and Laura, who hosts the show with him, he said, I told them. And they're like, okay. And he said, So we knew this, The show is going to start. Laura is going to open the show. She's going to throw it over to Marcus and then Marcus is going to throw it to me. Said, Macus is over there talking and he goes, Dan says, I'm sitting there going, oh no, I probably shouldn't do this. I could lose my job. This is my livelihood. This is my family. You know, I don't need to pray. I could probably just say, hey, you know, prayers for Damar. I don't know if I need that. Like he said, there it is, fear. Do I do this? There's consequences. The consequences might not work the way I want. And he goes, Marcus is talking and I'm having these thoughts get through my head. And he tells me he goes, Dude, next thing it comes in my head is Dave Wilson is in my head going, a real man rejects passivity. A real man rejects passivity.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:39:05] Yes.
Dave Wilson: [00:39:06] He's like, I knew that I had to be a man. He says, they threw it over to me and I looked at the camera and I did it. I don't know if you realize this, that video of him praying has been viewed like 60 million times. It became this moment for the Christian community around the country as like, look at Dan Orlovsky. Yeah, I think it was almost like convicting for us as men is like he's putting his job on the line. We all know this. He's, he could be fired for this. Look at him taking a stand. I think 60 million people were passing that around the Internet because it was inspiring to say, okay, next time I feel like I'm supposed to do something and I'm afraid to do it, lead with courage, you know, and trust God for the results. Part of the reason we're writing a book together is like people know what's what's behind that guy's, you know, character. What is it that drives a guy like Dan to do that kind of thing. So that's that's a model for all of us. When we're afraid, when we're filled with fear, ask God for strength and power, do the right thing, step out. And like you said at the beginning of this podcast, courage is contagious. Others are going to be inspired by that. Other men, other dads are going to say, Man, I'm going to do that. I'm going to lead like that. Let's go.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:40:17] Let's go. You know, one final just challenge to all of us is to look in the mirror and have some self-aware awareness around how's it going as a dad? How's it going in my marriage? I know about ten years into your marriage, this is about 30 years in the rearview now, the moment of you thinking things were good and then realizing from Ann's perspective, your wife, oh things are not good. Could you just I know it'll be the short version, but quickly encourage us to ask the hard question. Be courageous with getting some real feedback and how am I doing as a dad or husband. Can you kind of share a little bit of that?
Dave Wilson: [00:40:55] Ten years married, five years as the Detroit Lions chaplain at this time, starting a church, So very busy and we go out on a date. And again, I think our marriage honestly, if you'd asked me at 4 p.m. that day, a scale of 1 to 10, what's your marriage? I would have said we're ten and we're great. Go on this date thinking all that. And when we were driving home, we had a conversation outside the school where we were going to start the church. So it was a pretty cool moment to pray, anyway, as I sort of turned to kiss Ann in the front seat of, Don't Ask Me Why, in a Honda Accord, you know, no actions happened in there, but I had high dreams. Anyway, she wouldn't kiss me. And again, I was sort of caught off guard because it was a great date night. I think we're great. And basically, she says, I've lost my feelings for you. And it begins this conversation like, We're not a ten. She's like, No, we're not even a one. And I had no idea. And it's so interesting when we tell this story, which we've told now for two decades all around the country, people say, my husband thinks, he thinks we're ten. It's it's always that way. It isn't the woman and the guy. It's usually the guy's uninformed. And so that was a moment of, okay, why do you feel this way? And it was basically me chasing my dream, gone all the time. And again, I now know as I've sat down and process some of that, a lot of that was me feeling, I got to prove myself as a man by accomplishment. And that's what I always did as an athlete. And, you know, if I can throw four touchdowns, I'm the man. And so I was doing all that and I wasn't being a husband. And we had little boys, at the time. Two of our three are already born. And so in some ways I had to make a commitment, which that night was the, was the revelation from God to say that's what vertical means. You know, you're not going to save this marriage by going to marriage conference and doing good things. And we teach it those things. So we know those are good, good moments. But it comes back to engage with God as a mission. If you're not engaging with God, a personal, real walk with God. And I'm not talking about just showing up at church. I mean, every day, just like a workout. You're saying I got to connect with God, I got to hear from God. I got to be in His word. A lot of us men say words about that, we don't actually do it. And just like a body, if you're not in the gym, if you're not eating right, you'll be able to see signs. The same thing is true spiritually. There'll be signs, you won't be or reject passively and lead with courage. You won't, you'll be giving into sin in private areas and secret areas, and you won't be the strong man your wife needs and your kids need unless you do that. So vertical means, man, I'm going vertical every day. I'm getting on my knees. And again, I'm not perfect good that I fail, I get lazy. But man, when you're finding strength in the Lord, then you turn and you are able to love your wife and lead in a way you can't do in your own strength. And that builds a marriage. So we're always telling people, Man, you don't build your marriage, it isn't turn to each other and find strength there, no it's turn vertically, both of you. And again, you can't control her. You can only control you. But you find strength here and you turn to her and lead and love out of that strength. Let me tell you, I don't know a Christian woman in the world that doesn't respond to that, that lights them up. My man walking with God, my man is loving me out of a strength he's getting vertically from his relation with Jesus. Every wife I've ever heard, that's what they're praying for and longing for. They're going to be drawn to that. That's what a real man does. And so that's how it works.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:44:43] Dave, I'm so grateful for this conversation. We hit about 20% of my questions. We'll have you back again. Yeah, I mean, we got at least we got a couple of pages I didn't get to. So that's how it usually works, though. Thank you. Would you say just a short prayer for all of us dads as we say goodbye?
Dave Wilson: [00:44:57] Yeah. And Jeff, let me say, you're really good at this. I do this for a living, interview people. And you're good, man. You are prepared. I've done podcasts that haven't been prepared. You know your stuff, you know your person you're interviewing and, you know, awesome Dad is amazing and want to be awesome dads, so way to go. You're encouraging men and helping men and I think we got to copy what you're doing as dads and encourage other guys to be awesome Dads. So, Father, I just thank you for modeling for us what a man looks like, what a dad looks like, how we're, we're called the live. And Lord, You know we cannot do this. We can aspire to do this. We'll never reach those goals without You in us, and Your power in us. And so, Lord, I pray for the guys listening to this, You would help them to be men of God. I pray that they would fall on their knees as this podcast ends and if they need to repent like I had to do on our ten year anniversary, they'd repent and start over and put You first and ask You to make them the husband, the dad You called them to be. So I pray there would be a revival of men in this country and a revival of men listening to this podcast that You would use this to literally transform them and their marriage and their legacy in Jesus name. Amen.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:46:25] Thank you so much for joining us today for episode 368 with Dave Wilson. All the links to his books, his radio show, just other things we talked about today. Of course, we always have kind of our top five takeaways, a couple of key quotes, transcripts and all those links. You can find all that at dadawesome.org/podcast. Hey, if today's conversation has been helpful, text another dad to simply text them dadawesome.org, our website, or a link to this specific episode, but the more you guys are reaching out to other dads, the more we're able to serve, impact, invest in, cheer on more dads to be DadAwesome. So thanks for helping us spread the word. Have a great week, guys.
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· 10:36 - "One of the big things I've tried to pass on is don't be passive, be a man who sees a need and acts, be a man who sees his wife needing him to be sensitive in that moment, be sensitive and gentle. Or maybe she needs him to be firm in that moment, be firm. I think passivity in us men is rampant and that's contagious."
· 12:49 - "Scripture says the sins of the father visit down the third and fourth generation. That's a promise. It's going to happen unless you intentionally stop it. And a lot of people don't know, in that same verse in Exodus 20, God says yes, but the Father who is righteous, I will bless his legacy to a thousand generations. So, there's this promise on both sides. You better be very careful how you live because it's going into your legacy, good or bad. To watch that is pretty powerful."
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