373 | Partnering with God to Raise Your Kids, Slowing Down, and Finding Rest in the Tension (Jay Heck & Rob Porter: Part 1)
Episode Description
Jeff Zaugg and Rob Porter sit down with Jay Heck for a powerful, three-way conversation on fatherhood. In Part 1, they dive into the tension between being a provider and still embracing curiosity, adventure, and childlike wonder. They also unpack the unique triune relationship between a father, God, and his child.
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Jay Heck is the founder and director of Being Songs, a ministry helping men discover that authentic, fearless, God-designed manhood begins by being a son. He and his wife, Heather, have two young adult children.
Rob Porter lives in New Zealand with his wife and two kids. He leads Let’s Keep Rising, a ministry that crafts adventures, events, and resources that meet men where they are and help them experience restoration in the most critical relationships they have, beginning with God.
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· Are you approaching life like an orphan or like a son whose father is going to come through for him even if he makes a mistake?
· Slowing down can help you navigate the tension between being a provider and embracing curiosity, wonder, and creativity.
· God uses your trials to bring wholeness, restoration, and healing.
· You don’t have to exhaust yourself to allow God to do a work in you.
· Instead of carrying the burden of fatherhood alone, realize that you are ultimately raising God’s child, and He will be there to help you.
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· Send a Voice Message to DadAwesome
· Apply to join the next DadAwesome Accelerator Cohort: Email awesome@dadawesome.org
· Subscribe to DadAwesome Messages: Text the word “Dad” to (651) 370-8618
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Podcast Intro: [00:00:01] Being a great father takes a massive amount of courage. Instead of being an amazing leader and a decent dad, I wanna be an amazing dad and a decent leader. The oldest dad in the world gave you this assignment, which means you must be ready for it. As a dad, I get on my knees and I fight for my kids. Let us be those dads who stop the generational pass down of trauma. I want encounters with God where He teaches me what to do with my kids. I know I'm going to be an awesome dad because I'm gonna give it my all.
Jay Heck: [00:00:39] I've known how to approach God and say, okay, God, Father me, and I've known how to approach my kids with humility and with this posture that with my children, son, daughter. This is the first time I've done this and you're unique and I'm fascinated by you. And if I had my choice, I would never disappoint you. I would never hurt you. I would never make mistakes, but clearly I did. So I wanna learn from it. I wanna patch things up where there's been a rupture and let's keep going.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:01:10] What's up guys? Welcome back to DadAwesome. My name is Jeff Zaugg and today episode 373, this is a treat. Guys, I've been looking forward to this since, boy, about four months ago I found myself a little north of San Antonio, Texas with my oldest daughter. We were on a special father daughter experience called First Bloom. Jay Heck hosted this experience and during the trip I met Rob Porter. Rob is from New Zealand, from the North Island of New Zealand. Rob leads Let's Keep Rising, an amazing heart -centric missional initiative around men, around experiencing God's love, around being intentional dads. Lots of, lots there that we'll unpack. Jay Heck leads the organization Being Sons that puts on the First Bloom, has been a part of DadAwesome in the past. Guys, during that last moment of this incredible experience in Texas, Rob and I had a little side chat. We were like, what if we could double interview Jay? And it happened, it happened in February here. And I'm so thankful to get to share this. It's a two -part episode. Today's about 45 minutes long. It's a longer one. And then next week's about 35 minutes. Guys, this conversation, three -way double interview. Rob takes over, asks a bunch of questions, then I take over and ask a bunch of questions. So it's really a fun kind of three -way conversation, deeply passionate, deeply like heart stuff of who are we becoming, what have we experienced, what are we walking, what are we learning as leaders of these ministries. So, so thankful. Let me real quick sideline, I want to introduce a new thing that DadAwesome is doing, where you just leave a voicemail, leave a voice message for DadAwesome, and then I have had the joy of setting up these half -hour phone conversations. So it's right in the show notes. Just click the button, Leave DadAwesome a voice message. Just short, it could be 30 seconds, it could be 90 seconds. But I'd love to hear from a few of you guys if you're at all interested in scheduling one of these one -on -one calls, completely free, and it's just a delight for me to get to connect one -on -one. I had an amazing call just a few days ago with Brendan in North Carolina, and I'm so thankful. It was such a fun call. So just leave me a voice message, and I will prayerfully schedule one or two of those each week. So click the button, leave a voice message, and that's been a new fun offering from DadAwesome. The other one is to remind you guys, we're in the end of our third cohort of the DadAwesome Accelerator. So fun, so impactful, a six -week sprint, diving into what we've learned in over seven years of DadAwesome. We package it for a small group of dads, about 10 guys in six weeks. We're kicking off the week after Easter, so we're kicking off here in about a month, and I want to invite you guys, email awesome@dadawesome.org. Just send an email, blank email to awesome@dadawesome.org and you're going to bounce back email with the deadline for application the link to apply and the promises around that experience and the expectations. So we'd love to invite you guys to prayerfully apply to be a part of the next DadAwesome Accelerator. Okay let's get into today's conversation, Rob Porter coming at us from New Zealand, Jay Heck from Texas and myself in Northeast Florida. Enjoy the conversation. This is episode 373. So, today we've got a fun three -way conversation. I've got Jay, I've got Rob, I've got New Zealand covered, I've got Texas covered, I've got Florida covered. What's up guys?
Jay Heck: [00:04:57] Hey, great to be here.
Jay Heck: [00:04:59] Hello from the future.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:05:00] Exactly. I was going to mention the future. So Rob, is it Wednesday in New Zealand?
Jay Heck: [00:05:05] Yeah, so it's eight in the morning here in New Zealand, on Wednesday.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:05:10] And it's 2:00 in the afternoon on Tuesday for me. I think I'm a step ahead of Jay.
Jay Heck: [00:05:14] Yeah, one hour ahead.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:05:16] I thought it'd be fun to start with gratitude, and then we'll do some intros because I want everybody to know, all three of us actually, because not everybody knows us. I want to start with gratitude, Jay. You, a couple years ago, gave me a couple hours on a Zoom call. We got to know each other through a call, and then texting, emailing, we've been in touch for a few years. But you knew that I wanted to bring my daughter to meet you and to come to your, the First Bloom event that you hosted.
Jay Heck: [00:05:43] I hoped you would, yeah.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:05:45] Well, you invited and I said we're coming, but it took a few years to come with my oldest daughter. And what I experienced, and Rob will add from his perspective, but I just wanted to begin with gratitude, Jay, and just say how grateful I am for what you crafted for my oldest daughter and me, for Kiva and I. We experienced love from you, like, really outside of direct family members or like my best friends for life, the kind of love that Kiva experienced from you, and the love that you poured in on me as well. You just like, there's about 16 of us dads, 16 daughters, and you, the love and guidance and just what we felt driving back to the airport. I knew we're both forever changed, and so thank you. Thank you for showing up fully and for guiding, crafting, and gifting that to my daughter and I.
Jay Heck: [00:06:38] Well, you are welcome. It's a joy, it's a delight, and it's a gift to me every time I get to meet dads like y 'all and hang out with y 'all. It's kind of my dream environment, so once I get there, it really doesn't feel like work to me, it's just such an atmosphere of love. Yeah, well, you are welcome, for sure.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:06:59] I know Rob echoes just about all that, but anything you'd want to add, Rob?
Rob Porter: [00:07:04] So, oh goodness, so I'm looking at a picture of my daughter from our trip right now on this call and just her smile, in fact, you know, I'll show you guys as well. Just I know, I know the listeners probably won't be able to see this because it's audio, but just to kind of bring you into that moment. So this is Abigail, my daughter on the airplane on the way home and she is just, she's wearing like the, a hoodie from the camp that we stayed at and she's just got this radiance, just this radiance and it was just an extravagant time. A time where I got to be with her and to echo Jeff, like, Jay, this environment and space that God's led you to facilitate and be steward of and guide, it is needed more than ever, and I am eternally grateful as well.
Jay Heck: [00:08:12] Yeah, you're welcome. It's a joy. Your daughters are just so beautiful, so beautiful, so full of life. And I saw them come alive because they got to be with you. And they got all of your attention. And that is what our daughters want more than anything.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:08:31] Now you didn't tell me when we signed up that my daughter had become friends with Rob's daughter and now we're trying to budget for a trip to New Zealand with a family. You didn't tell me that that was a part of the equation.
Jay Heck: [00:08:43] Wonderful.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:08:44] Yeah. Well, let's pan out, make some introductions, and then we'll zoom back in to there's so many parts of this conversation I've been looking forward to. Jeff from Northeast Florida, four daughters, and the ministry that I represent is DadAwesome.
Rob Porter: [00:09:00] Yeah, so I have just turned 44. I've been living in New Zealand with my family for five years. I have three children, two daughters and a son. I'm so thankful to be here with you guys.
Jay Heck: [00:09:16] Jay Heck. I have a beautiful wife, Heather, and two kids. I've got a son who is 22, and he is in his very last semester of college, and a daughter who is 20, about to be 21, and she will be graduating in December of this year. So yeah, we've been empty nesters for a few years. And as far as what I do, yeah, I have the privilege of running a ministry called Being Sons that really focuses on helping men discover what that piece of their identity really means, to be a son. And there's very few things that get a man's attention and highlight their need to be fathered than when they have kids. And they really need somebody to give them counsel, advice, provision, protection. I mean, just, you know, we need a dad so desperately and some of us didn't get what we need. So can we or can we not lean on God for these things? Yeah, that's, that's what we get to discover. So yeah, that's me.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:10:21] And, you know, probably because of the experience, the dad -daughter First Bloom experience, we'll talk about raising daughters, maybe a little more leading daughters, a little more than sons in this conversation. But we're for sure gonna talk about us being fathered and the identity of being sons in the name of your ministry. But it's such a, I mean, it's half of all, like it's the first half of all the fatherhood work that I am grateful to be a part of, is living as a son before trying to show up as a dad. And so we'll thread it in out. But Rob, could you mention for a moment, I know we don't talk about our jobs at First Bloom, at the time, we don't talk about our jobs. So Rob and I had no idea that we both lead ministries to help men, help dads until like a last campfire. It kind of slipped out accidentally, not with any intent to look what I do, it just kind of slipped out. Rob, talk a little bit about the movement you've started.
Rob Porter: [00:11:20] So, yeah, God impressed on my heart, well, probably over the last decade, actually, Jeff, but it became impossible not to move toward it a couple of years ago. And Jay, I'll be really, and Jeff, you guys are a few miles ahead of me in this space. And so, it feels like Let's Keep Rising, which is the website that I have up there, is God seems to be using it as a vehicle to maturate and to initiate me as a son. And as a natural overflow, there's opportunity to offer. I think that's kind of where the origin of it. And so, do you guys find that, that God is using what it is that you're doing in your ministry? Does it feel like this vehicle God's using to do some deep work in you personally, that then you get to offer? So like Jay, for example, in Being Sons, how has God used Being Sons for you personally and is the outpouring of what God's done for you, has that then been the overflow?
Jay Heck: [00:12:37] Yeah, it's it's an incredible question. I was just talking with a guy yesterday about that. One of my core values, I mean I could go back into my story and pull out where that came from, but authenticity and honesty. I think when I was younger and growing up, those were put to the test. I kind of went through a fire and you find that some people are less than authentic about things and you feel burned or you feel betrayed and somewhere along the way I just developed a core value that I did not want to teach anything that I either had not already gone through or that I was not going through currently. So I would say probably about 50 % of what I do, I mean the stuff I do with fathers and sons, my kids are 22 and 20 years old. They're not old. I mean, the jury's out on how they're going to, you know, the decisions they're going to make between now and 30, but I'm very hands -on with them as much as I possibly can, as much as they'll allow me, you know, when your kids are in college, it's a very different ballgame. But I have a good relationship with them. And I do believe that the relationship that I have with them and the openness that they have to Jesus and the openness that they have to me and also with Heather, my wife, those are the product of leaning deeply on God and saying, I have no idea what to do here. What is Your counsel? And I'm so blessed that even though I've made a lot of mistakes, I've known how to approach God and say, okay, God, father me. And I've known how to approach my kids with humility and with this posture that with my children, son, daughter, this is the first time I've done this, and you're unique, and I'm fascinated by you, and if I had my choice, I would never disappoint you, I would never hurt you, I would never make mistakes, but clearly I did. So I want to learn from it. I want to patch things up where there's been a rupture and, you know, let's keep going. And that has produced so much fruit. Growing up as a kid, I came out of childhood with a fear of a lack of connection, a lack of attachment with my children. So I think, you know, out of the pain and out of the crucible of our past, we have the opportunity to have a glorious future if we dig into God and say, help redeem what my experience was. So I'd say about 50 % of what I do comes from experience, and what God would say is, you've got some expertise in this area because you've done it. But I'd say the other half of what I do, which is just men, it's not necessarily with the fathers and the daughters. It's just live ammo training. Just here's where I am, here's what I'm wrestling with and struggling with, and I try and articulate it as clearly as I can and try and articulate how God is fathering me in that moment. Inevitably, if I'm authentic, oh, I also, I just don't spend much time with editing or making things look good. I kind of throw it out there, and that is one of the only ways that I could sustain it. You know, I just have to turn on the microphone or the video and just say, here's what I'm going with, here's what I'm wrestling with, and here's what God is, here's what I believe God is telling me right now, or this is my lifeline right now. We'll see how it turns out, but come with me. Inevitably, I get communications from people saying, thank you, that's exactly what I needed to hear. I'm so grateful that I'm not alone in this and, yeah, I want to lean on God in the way that you are. Being a son, I still don't really know what that is. I have been a doer of all things my whole life. And I'd say that one of my major objectives in life is to learn to rest in God's love, provision, protection. I mean, He's already got the end from the beginning figured out. And for me, for all of us as sons, learning to rest in Him is life's great reward, but it's a very difficult thing to do and it's a very difficult thing for a man to do alone. So, yeah, always growing, always growing, even with my kids. I could tell current stories with them as well, for sure.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:17:34] I love this always growing, Rob, like your question is, to me, all kinds of insecurities can start to creep up when I hear that question, like, oh, because I feel like 95 % of what I have the joy of leading, honor of leading to help dads, I'm barely scratching that surface myself. I'm like real time, like I, I use the phrase, and maybe it pairs well with what you just said, Jay, of always learning. I'll go first is a phrase that I kind of live by and I feel like I'll go first applies in so many aspects to us as men and as dads where because of the love of God, because of His counsel, His protection, His encouragement, like I can say, even though I don't feel equipped, I'll go first. I'll go first to take my daughter on a date, even though like I don't know exactly how to care for her in this phase and this feels like there's a wall there. I'll go first to start a campfire, invite some other dads over. I'll go first to plan a trip to a cabin to let's, let's go a little deeper guys. Let's get a cabin, go a little deeper. Even though, in so many ways, like I've even, I'm doing a coaching cohort right now. It's my third one of about 10 dads in each one. I'm like I feel so ill -equipped to coach other dads. But yet, I've learned so much and I know it's been helpful. I know these are just my favorite people. So Rob, to answer, I have gone first for seven years and hosted interviews and led groups and led events around being DadAwesome. And I don't feel more awesome today than I did seven years ago. So, I actually feel more like, back to Jay, like I wanna learn as I go, what can I learn in this step? What can I learn that stumble? That stumble, what can I learn from it? I don't think I'm even stumbling less than I was seven years ago. I'm still stumbling as a dad. So yeah, that's the way I kind of process out the, is it the ministry for me or is it for the men that I serve? And I'm like wholeheartedly both, because I need it.
Jay Heck: [00:19:51] Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Porter: [00:19:52] Yeah, it's a fascinating space, isn't it? Like, I was just thinking this morning about dads that I know. And I wrote down how busy from, from my lens with dads in my sphere, how busy things actually are these days. So let's say you have two parents working, let's say you're trying to pay a mortgage and pay bills and keep children in clothes that are forever changing. You're being a husband, you're being a dad, a friend, leading the family. You know, there's pressure, there's stress, there's tiredness, there is lack of margin. And so there's a tension that I'm seeing, which is the tension of being a provider and supporting those in your care. But then we have this living heart that is full of curiosity and wonder and wants to create and do things that are God given. And so there's this, you know, one friend mentioned it, that the tension is actually the gift, because it's raising something for you to, that you need to notice and walk with God in. But I'm just wondering from your guy's perspective, where does that hit your story from your experience so far of this tension of being in this space of, you know, intense family season, the pressure, the stress, the paying bills and all of that, but then you have your true heart and you want to, as one of my post -it notes on the wall says here, you know, I want to live more true, more honest, more of the time, and there's a tension in how to get there. Where'd you guys go with that?
Jeff Zaugg: [00:21:59] Rob, I love your questions. And I just like, even though we're doing this through a computer screen, like I feel, this feels very campfire, deep processing, stare into the embers for a little while before. I don't think we have to ratchet up the pace and add more commitments. We're in a season of subtracting right now in our family and it did bum out my daughters to subtract a couple nights a week of dance. They're bummed. But we made the choice. And our life has far more margin than most of our friends right now. And it was because we just moved houses, there's a couple other seasons of things right now that we're just like, we need more margin. It was, I can't recall who said it, but it was on one of our mutual friends podcasts, the phrase was slow is pro. Do you guys recall who that's from? He's in Hawaii. I think Morgan was interviewing him. Anyways, I think slower to make decisions, slower to make extra commitments, slower, like I'm at a place, like truly sees the caterpillar and the butterfly that we'll ask Jay to unpack what I mean by that in a moment. There's only so many moments of flight and really the transformation into young woman. And, and it's a long transition, it's not an immediate, but I just want to be as present as possible. So that's initial reflections on that question. Where would that take you, Jay?
Jay Heck: [00:23:38] Well, you know, kids are out of the house right now. I find that I tend to think, am I thinking like an orphan right now or am I thinking like a son whose father's gonna come through for him even if he makes a mistake? Both my kids, they've made dumb mistakes. You know, they spent money on things that they shouldn't. I don't even ask what it is. I just see that their account is running low and I stick money in the account and I just say, hey, I bumped you up just to get you to the end of the month. And they're like, thank you, I was embarrassed to say anything. I didn't want to burden you, but it's my delight to keep track and make sure that my children have the resources that they need. It's my joy for my son to go and get a cigar with some of his buddies and go off campus, so they can just smoke it and have a great talk, you know. So one of the things that an orphan tends to do, and this was very much me, and this is what I still wrestle with, is that there's simply not enough resources. There's not enough time. There's not enough money. And my sense of security as an orphan was defined for a long time by how much space I had on the calendar, by how many days I worked, by how many hours in a day that I worked, as if I'm banking them in and God's, in His pride of me is saying, you know, Jay works hard. I'm going to make sure that he is not, that he's taken care of, you know, and he doesn't become poor. So there was something in me that was very works -oriented, and even this morning as I was praying, I'm like, Jesus, I am like Paul was addressing the Galatians, you know, like you foolish Galatians, have you not learned? And I realized that there is still a way that the orphan in me is believing that my salvation, my joy, and my security come from what I do. So one of the ways that years ago, I would say this is probably the first thing that God did, as I began to journey into the dismantling of my orphan self and beginning to believe that I am a son, regardless of what I do, is He began to invite me into adventure. Not just adventure, He began inviting me into the adventure that I had denied myself my whole life. Why? Because adventure, because joy, because investment in my own heart, because investment in something that's gonna put a smile on my face, I wasn't worthy of it and because it just felt too costly. I don't want God to have to take money from somewhere else and put it back in my account because I get myself in trouble. And shockingly, the way that He began curing me of the orphan spirit was inviting me onto adventures and to spend money on things that I thought I would never spend this much money on this thing. I would never take this much time off of work. All of it felt irresponsible, and I had to get, I had to invite other people into it. Like, could this be true? Could God be inviting me into this? I had to get other people praying with me and for me. And some of the most fantastic memories of my entire life were in those first five or six years of understanding what it means to be a son. You know, there are places in our soul that are unfinished. And I go through, with the fathers and the sons, I go through kind of a seven -part, seven stages of the feminine journey, and with the men, I go through seven stages of the masculine journey. And the first time I heard that, John Eldredge was articulating, he had six stages at the time and I remember thinking, oh gosh, he's describing the first stage as the beloved son, like the infant stage, and that some people didn't get what they needed. And I'm like, I kind of look up at God and I go, man, it sucks to be that guy, to have to go all the way back to that. Thank God I'm not that guy. Well, you know, it's the perfect setup. He needed that to come out of my mouth. And two hours later, I find myself in the woods with a journal, and I'm listing the things that had caused me pain. And I said, what's the source of all this, God? Why am I wrestling with the things that I'm wrestling with, my anger and some of this deeply rooted stuff? And I got very frustrated with Him because He did not appear to be speaking. So I threw my journal on the ground, I laid back in the grass, and I gave up. And He said to me, you were never the beloved son. And the beloved son is so young, they're the one that's sitting in the truck right next to dad, you know, in the center of the bench seat. It's just, I don't care where we're going on Saturday morning. Let's just go. Let's do Home Depot. Let's go to the feed store. Let's, you know, whatever. It's just the joy of being together and I had no clue what that really felt like. So adventures, my very first overnight adventure in the woods, I'd never taken it because I was afraid to do it. That built upon the next one and the next one and then longer distance things and then overnight solo backpacking trips in the mountains where I had to carry my own water. I mean He was just constantly pushing me through play to discover who I really am and He was opening opportunities and saying, that money in your account is Mine and I want you to invest it in yourself. And in this way, He was actually saying to me, seek first the kingdom. And He was like, son, you are the kingdom. Like, you need, you are not wrong to invest in the kingdom in your heart. Is there a better place? Is there a better way for Me to meet you than for you to give yourself the kindness and allow Me to love you? Like that has been a hard thing for me to do, to simply let Him love me. I still have a hard time with letting others love me. Jeff, when you were praying, you were speaking words of kindness and appreciation over me. And for my whole life, I'm 53 now, for my whole life until this year, I have pushed back and I have rejected love, compliments, affirmation, because it's made me feel dirty, I don't deserve it, right, a lot of these things. And now I'm just learning that Jesus just keeps saying, just drop your guard, open your heart, and receive it. And you and I will sort through whether you're going to get a big head or a big ego about it. But you mean something. I'm inside you. So come on, we've got this history together. We've got a future together. So, to go back and answer your question, the tension, the tension is yes, my life is important to other people, I have to go to work, I have to have integrity. It is right, it is good, it is true for me to work hard. If I didn't, I wouldn't be proud of myself and I also want my children and my family to be proud of me as the leader of our home. But yet at the same time, is that an excuse to not take care of my own heart? What is needed for me to invest in myself so that I can bring my best to my children? And that is a very hard journey to take unless you are constantly praying and saying, God, are You in this?
Rob Porter: [00:31:39] I think a word that stood out to me, many words from what you guys were just saying, and I'm looking forward to listening back to this, but the crucible of your past. And that really stands out to me because, as we know, like, I'm not going to tell you it's going to be easy, but I'm telling you it's going to be worth it. I still very much feel in the crucible of my past in certain areas of which I invest to spend time to look at. Snd there are parts of me that are like Why can't we just arrive? Why can't I just be here? But actually, this holy crucible is what God's using to restore, to bring wholeness, to bring healing, and it is a life's work. And I guess it's like a transition of nestling into that reality as opposed to trying to fight it. Do you guys find that you're more at ease with this crucible of work, doing deep restorative, inner transformational work, or does it feel quite abrasive and acute and uncomfortable or all of that? And then I'll pass the mic.
Jay Heck: [00:33:07] Here's where I am. I love my son. I love his youth and his energy. Everywhere he goes, he carries a journal, everywhere. And he is always looking for wisdom to write down. He's always asking questions. And I love that. And I look back at myself and I see that I used to be that guy. Thank God I've got, you know, a stack of journals that's three feet high that I've gone through and it's filled with wisdom, filled with experiences, filled with heart cry prayers to God, you know, meet me, help me, help me grow, forgive me. But I find that today, after doing that for 30, well, not that long, 20 to 25 years, I don't have as much energy for that. And for a while, I would really beat myself up for it. I should still be carrying my journal around. I should still be digesting so much content on podcasts and books and all of this other stuff. There is so much out there that to be truthful, I'm just exhausted. And I think it's, I think God's in it. I think God's in the, how much of this is you securing your own salvation in your own future joy and peace and happiness? And how well is that constant interrogation of yourself helping you? I mean, 30 minutes ago, I was sitting in the chair behind me, and I was just admitting to God, I know that there is a way for me to be at rest with You and learn and allow You to do in me what You want to do in me. And I don't have to be deeply active in it. I just have to be in agreement with what You're doing and what You're saying. Just have to be in agreement. I just have to be willing to say yes and to humble myself. And so my energy is more along the lines of, okay, God, what are You saying? I'm being curious about what's coming up in me, what do You have to say? And I'm spending less time searching for the answers in other places. I just feel kind of tired because I've done it so hard, so long, and I feel like He's smiling over that.And we also sometimes, we just need rest. So, it could very well be that I know that a month from now, I may be carrying my journal around again, and like, He's just given me a season of rest, and then all of a sudden, I'm ready to go again. I am not ready to be an old man and to quit adventuring and to quit learning at all. But this season, I feel tired, and I've had to receive God's, you're okay. It's okay, son. I see that you're tired, and I'm here with you.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:36:21] Jay, you're actually, you're better than okay in His eyes, right. It's, that's the cool thing is sometimes I'll be like, oh, I got to remember that I'm okay. But really, back to your story about putting money in your kid's bank accounts, like, you actually feel more like there's more in your eyes, in your gesture, in your words. It's so far beyond okay. Your kids are so far beyond like as far as your affection, your pride, your joy. I think about living like a disciple of Jesus versus living like a Pharisee. And you guys can feel free to push back on me on this one, but I've always been like a C plus, B minus guy where I'm like, well, I haven't perfected this at all, but I'm thankful to learn and I want to move to the next thing. And so when it comes to the areas of growth, I mean, there's so many areas I want to grow in, But I find myself as instead of like pressing and pushing to ratchet up another notch or ratchet up, like I feel like a Pharisee would do that. They try to just, I can get a little more out of this, I can get a little more. And I feel like the disciples of Jesus had so many rough edges and they're just like, oh they lost interest, well, let's just go do something else. Let's just like, maybe I'm wrong in that just over generalization, but that is my, it's both my personality and my approach. So I will learn over the course of a couple months like 50 things I can put into practice as a dad from the interviews, from people I interview. Like there's like 50 gold nuggets buried in there and I'll get some text messages from friends of like, oh, I learned this and I'm doing this and that somebody else will text me and I've learned this, so feedback loops are, there's not that many of them as a podcaster, but once in a while I'm like, oh, this is amazing and I'll realize and start to feel bad because I didn't pull out that gold nugget and put that practice in my own life. So, my, but I feel like I have a level of peace and gratitude that, this goes back to slow is pro, it's okay that I haven't taken that next step and I haven't, man, there's a lot of areas. I'm okay with slow. In some ways, my wife would like me to ratchet up a little faster in growing, learning. So there's a bit of attention attached to that approach. Does that make sense?
Jay Heck: [00:38:48] I would bet you guys also feel this dynamic that when you get on the rhythm of doing something that in the beginning took a lot of union with God, a lot of thought, a lot of preparation, a lot of planning, and then it becomes more familiar with you. You know, like at some point, we do enough podcasts that the temptation is to not ask God for help anymore because I got this, you know. We run enough adventures that we don't need it, you know, we write enough blogs or whatever it is. The tension is to maintain that humility, you know, and see so that everything that we do is an opportunity to grow, but never to kill yourself, right? Like, the longer we do things with God, the more we should be at rest with Him. But to not need Him, to not lean on Him, that's a mistake. So we're meant to rest, but rest in Him and with Him, and that is, that's part of the being, you know. I'm learning how to be this guy who does things with God and tries to do less and less apart from Him. And guys, that's a lifetime. I mean, we don't even really get a clue what that's like until we're with Jesus in heaven. And I'm hoping one day to be building a house from scratch with Him in the coming kingdom, because I know I'll get His undivided attention for a long, long time. And then after that, I will never doubt that He's with me and that I can talk to Him all the time, right. Because we'll have that really tangible physical experience or something like it.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:40:34] Jay, I would love to have you paint, like there's two frameworks that I just, they've captured my imagination and I remember them from our time at First Bloom. And one of them is the framework of me identifying my identity is father to my daughter versus the flip. And right away, you guys both know what the one I'm talking about, the flip to me being the helper. And if you could just paint that one first and then I want to head in towards the the chrysalis, the caterpillar, the butterfly. It's good for my heart to understand this process. Can you explain the first framework though?
Jay Heck: [00:41:14] Um, yeah, uh, so you just don't look for the right answer to this, right. I'll just present to you what I'm always presenting to myself. This is like a daily way of thinking. And it's what I presented to, to all dads. Okay. You are in, we are all in a triune relationship, those of us with, with children. So it's, it's, it's me, it's my child and then there's God. And so what we're really looking for is what is the dominating reality that I live in? What does that relationship practically look like? How do I engage the world and my daughter in God? And so of those three, there are three roles. Me, God, and my daughter. Who is the father? Who is the child in that relationship? And then who is the one that comes to help? So, you, your daughter, or your son, and God, who do you believe on a day -to -day basis, minute by minute, hour by hour, who's the father in that relationship? Who is the child in that relationship? And who is the helper, who is the one that helps us keep growing and going? I'll just ask you guys, when you saw me put that up on the board, what was your honest response to that?
Rob Porter: [00:42:49] I've actually got the little diagram from our time together.
Jay Heck: [00:42:52] Oh, yeah. Show it. Show it.
Rob Porter: [00:42:53] Yeah, so there was two models here, wasn't there?
Jeff Zaugg: [00:42:58] Yes.
Rob Porter: [00:43:00] So I'm just showing Jay and Jeff here. And I think it's interesting, isn't it? Like, I think what it does is release, I feel like a pressure releasing in terms of if I'm a child, as opposed to Well, actually, yeah, these diagrams here, Jeff, so, Jay, sorry. So you've got in the first one, me as helper, daughter as child, father, God. And then in the second diagram, we have me as child, father God, daughter as helper. And it's interesting, daughter being helper and me being child. That's a really interesting lens because when I'm in conversations with my older daughter these days, who came to First Bloom, I get to sit in a posture of curiosity and wonder as opposed to, for better word, authority and someone up here somewhere. It brings me further down with her, beside her, as opposed to somewhere else that's perhaps a bit more disconnected in some ways. That's what it feels like.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:44:23] And my, my first reaction was thinking of the Holy Spirit as helper. I was like well God's the helper, I'm the, I'm the father, my daughter's the child. Like so that was the framework. But I see, Rob, I actually don't know if I had the aha I was going on three hours of sleep that first night session when I wrote these notes down. I have my same journal that you just held up so really all three, there's beauty and like Aha, wow. I wrote this note though, right after the diagram, I wrote, this is the prayer that we walk with God in this adventure. I don't know how to do this, but I have a Father in heaven. And then it was, we get to discover the goodness of God hand in hand. We get to be fathered by God. So it's just, I don't know if that's exactly what you said, Jay, but that's what I wrote down. So take us into it, Jay.
Jay Heck: [00:45:15] Yeah. Well, we have to be brutally honest with ourselves because most of the men who come, they're believers, right. Why would they come? I mean, they're taking a big risk coming across the field with their child. And I'm very open that this is a faith -based, father -son, father -daughter adventure, whichever it is. And so, I know we've got a concept of God. But even if we've been walking with God for many, many years, the world has beat you are an orphan, you are on your own, you have limited resources, and don't bother God unless it's really important. So, my history with my children is I'm the father, my child is the child that I have to take care of, and God is my helper, and there are rules of engagement with God to get Him to help. And, you know, we've all got our own rules of engagement, like don't bother Him too much. Don't ask too much. Keep your prayers to this length or whatever, you know, like you can answer the question. When you approach God and you have a need, are you the desperate needy person? Are you picturing yourself as the one that has to come through for your child and you're only gonna bother God when you don't have the resources, right. Like what that produces is anger. It produces fear. Like, I'm first going to allow myself to feel angry and fearful and like I don't have enough before I come to God and ask Him for help. But by the time we come there, we're pissed and we already think He's let us down in some ways. Like, why are You making me come to You again? And our child is, in some ways, suffering because they probably have already felt our anger. They've probably already felt our fear or our insecurity before we go to God. So, I would just ask, how's that working for you? It doesn't work and it's not meant to. So, that is the worldview of most men, all men in the world, most men in Christianity that I found, and it was my dominating reality. So, what if we switch it? What if, in fact, we begin operating under the paradigm that God is the Father, which means that all provision actually comes from Him. All protection actually comes from Him. The plan for my child's life that I feel like is so on me to help them navigate, what if God, like it says in Scripture, already has all the days numbered for them before one of them came to be? What if He already knows their nature, their goodness? What if He already knows what He's been training them for, what they're learning in the present moment, and He already knows, I've got all this stuff that I need to them and father them through for them to become what I created. What that means is that I can get in the way. If I take that posture that I'm the dad, I can so much be the wall and the obstacle between God and my child. If I can, if we can begin looking at it where God is the Father will, and then we've got this interchangeable relationship, I can be His child and God's going to use my son or my daughter to help me lean on Him. He's going to use my daughter, Bosley and my son, Bear to teach me things that I never learn from another man or another preacher or another book. Why? Because He knows how invested I am, how much my heart longs to do good by my children, which is the reason that many men come to First Bloom and First Tracks. It's God's sneaky way of saying, you think you need tips and techniques, but you don't. What you really need is to be relieved of the heavy, heavy burden and to take on the light and easy yoke. which is being the child. You get to be the kid. And so, you know, a dad's prayers are meant to shift from, God, help me, to, God, how can I help You, Father, our child? And man, you talk about a weight coming off of your shoulders. I look back and I see that my Father in heaven has provided the impossible for my children, things I could never have provided. And if I had not had that posture when the kids were coming around eight, nine, ten years old, if God hadn't given me that paradigm shift, I would have gotten so in the way. It's been a rescue. And, you know, so God is using me as a helper. I'm not the father. I get to help God raise His child. So, you know, the big question is, how do I come into alignment with You? And sometimes it gets uncomfortable, and it's a hard paradigm to embrace and live in all the time, but that's how I'm always trying to redirect my attention. I'm always asking, what's my worldview in this moment? Okay, okay, you're the Father, I'll back up, how can I help? And so my children have seen less anger, less fear, less insecurity. And when I sit with my children and I say, you know what, I don't have the answer or the resources, but your Father does. Your Father in heaven. So I will pray with both of my children when we come to this turning point and I'll say, okay, you have a Father, He knows. He has what is needed. So okay, daughter, let's just go and ask God to father you and me. So, Father, we come to You, my daughter and I come to You, and we don't know what to do. But you are a loving Father. You have been a perfect provider, perfect protector, and You have an incredible plan for our lives and You want to walk with us in it. You want us to partner with You and trust You. So what is Your counsel, God? Father, would You father my daughter? Would You father me? How can I help you love and be everything that my daughter needs for me to be in this, in the supporting role, not in the primary role here? And I've done it with my son as well. And the incredible benefit of doing that with your children is that by the time they leave the house, they've got two fathers. They know that they can come to you. And they know that, you know what, if my dad's not around well, my dad and I have been doing this thing. We drop to our knees and we say, Father, father me. And they've learned to articulate their need, their fears, their anxieties, and say, God, what do You want me to know? What do You want me to do? How can I follow You? And it's, I'm sitting back and observing, they're kind of in a stage right now in college where they don't say a whole lot because their faith life has to become theirs. They don't want to be me. I don't want them to become me. And I don't hear much directly from them, but I get reports. And I find so much joy when I hear how my daughter and my son describe their journey with God.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:52:57] Thank you so much for joining us for episode 373 with Rob Porter and Jay Heck. All the conversation notes, the transcripts, the links to these different incredible ministries, and just some of the top takeaways are all gonna be found at dadawesome.org/podcast, and then you just look for episode 373. Guys, thank you for leaning in. Thank you for listening. If you listen to this whole conversation, man, your hearts, you're feeling it right now. You're feeling this like, whoa, there's deeper, there's a deeper work, there's more healing, there's more, man, there's more here of God's love, there's more here of exploring a posture of our true identity, there's more here of the deeper, man, I can connect with my kids in a different way. There's so much here. So grateful you listened. We are praying for you guys. I'm cheering for you guys, and this is only the first half, so tune back next week for the second half of this conversation. Have a great week, guys.
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· 14:49- "I want to learn from it. I want to patch things up where there's been a rupture and let's keep going. And that has produced so much fruit. Growing up as a kid, I came out of childhood with a fear of a lack of connection, a lack of attachment with my children. So I think out of the pain and out of the crucible of our past, we have the opportunity to have a glorious future if we dig into God and say, help redeem what my experience was."
· 47:35 - "What if, in fact, we begin operating under the paradigm that God is the Father, which means that all provision actually comes from Him. All protection actually comes from Him. The plan for my child's life that I feel like is so on me to help them navigate, what if God, like it says in Scripture, already has all the days numbered for them before one of them came to be? What if He already knows their nature, their goodness? What if He already knows what He's been training them for, what they're learning in the present moment, and He already knows, I've got all this stuff that I need to them and father them through for them to become what I created. What that means is that I can get in the way. If I take that posture that I'm the dad, I can so much be the wall and the obstacle between God and my child. If I can, if we can begin looking at it where God is the Father will, and then we've got this interchangeable relationship, I can be His child and God's going to use my son or my daughter to help me lean on Him."
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